metaphors
, images and other possibilities
A dialogue with Chris Stroffolino
Aryanil
Mukherjee
Chris
Stroffolino, a contemporary North American poet, a pro-Beatnik who teaches
Shakespeare, and I, had been talking poetry and alighting on its peripherals in
an electronic mode for several months. The following is a recklessly edited
version of our pluralistic conversation.
Chris Stroffolino: Born March 20, 1963 (the same day
Ginsberg wrote "Death News,"), Stroffolino has published 3 full
length book of poetry. OOPS (1994), Stealer's Wheel (1999) and Speculative Primitive (forthcoming 2004). He's also
published 4 chapbooks of his poetry, as well as collection of reviews and
essays (Spin Cycle, 2001). He co-authored a critical edition of Shakespeare's
12th Night (IDG, 2000) and has played keyboards in various rock bands (Silver
Jews, Rising Shotgun, Hudson Bell, Volumen, Crooked Roads). Most recently, he's
singer/songwriter in the band Continuous Peasant (www.continuouspeasant.com).
He currently lives in San Francisco after spending almost 40 years on the
east-coast (Philly, NYC, etc.)
Aryanil:
My
first exposure to "post-language" poetry was a series of essays Mark
Wallace wrote, defining and introducing the term with crippling caution. We got
ourselves into a continuing conversation (that obviously went in all
directions) that lasted several months. Every time I spoke to Mark on that
topic he kept reminding me of the danger of "branding" poetry - I
thought I was trying to get an understanding of its traits.
Later,
when we were working together on his poems, I have asked the same questions to
Peter Gizzi - his reaction was much like yours. At times I get a sense that we
often engage in a lot of wasteful , wry theoritization of poetry and poetics
which does little to bring a book of poem closer to the heart of the average
reader.
I grew
up in a state where poetry had a very high public profile - someone like Walt
Whitman's picture would hang from the walls in virtually every home that had at
least high-school graduates. In the US, it is quite different- most
people have never heard of Walt Whitman.
Chris:
Yes,
it's weird about Mark....On one level he felt this need to coin the term and on
the other side he warns against it. He just should have never coined it
(perhaps he feared that if he didn't someone else would, kind of like WAR-ugh!)
Yes, I
totally agree with you about the problem of "theorization."
I'd even go further and say it may actually put up a bigger barrier to the
appreciation of the poem. I wrote at least one piece of prose that said this.
One of these pieces, called "Against Lineage," was originally going
to be published in a big academic book Mark was co-editing but then it was
nixed for inclusion (by a prominent poet who will remain nameless). I take that
as proof that what we are arguing here is rather dangerous to their
"profession."
At the
same time, I am well aware that much of my own poetry is likely to not be
appreciated by the "average reader" at least on the page at first. I
also know that when I give readings or performances of my work, I can reach
many more people than I can on the page. Somehow hearing the voice, and seeing
the performance, allows them to return to the page and appreciate it more at
least in my experience.
So yes,
there's a side of me that's very envious of the fact that in India poetry can
be much more popular than it is in America. It's my understanding that this is somewhat
true in Russia too. I talk to Russian immigrants who are very working class and
they can quote Pushkin or Pasternak, or cab drivers from the West Indies who
can quote Cesaire. I want to try to figure out how to make poetry more popular
in America. I also think Bob Dylan is one of the best contemporary poets, and
yes I will call him a poet. Did I tell you that I am working on putting out an
album of songs--- I play piano and sing, but although I've played with other
bands, as a sideman, I've never really tried to finish my own songs until this
year (at age 40). I don't think I'm as good as Dylan, and I find it much harder
to write songs than to write poetry, but I think it's worth trying. Nor do I
think my lyrics are especially challenging (if people want that, they can turn
to my other writing). At least my singing voice is a little better than Allen
Ginsberg's, in my humble opinion.
Aryanil:
I am
learning piano too (at 38) along with my 8 year old son. I have never
heard Ginsberg sing. Back in the early sixties, when he lived in Calcutta with
Orlovski, the latter always carried a guitar with him - he used to be the
lyricist often and at times. Allen would lend his voice - later in the eighties
I guess Allen and Peter brought out some of their more discreetly charming
song-albums - as a friend of mine once described.
Back to
the language poetry talk. I wholeheartedly agree with you that branded or
bannered poetry movements quite often arise from an identity crisis; although
these identification problems are real and important and do help etching out
the whole anatomy of new generation writing, but the longer these banners last,
the more they plague a healthy criticism of contemporary poetry. I think
Surrealism, Dada, the English Romantic Revival, Cubism, Fauvism,
post-modern etc have attempted to present a rather dogmatic partisan view of
world poetry. Language poetry seems no exception to that. However, it does seem
important given the time it emerged and the context. I view Beat
poetry with a different perspective though ( I am so fond of them) -
Beat poetry seems to present more of a lifestyle and less of a
writing style. Corso is so different from Ginsberg, Snyder or Ferlinghetti are
so different from either of them. In Bengal in the recent times, newer
trends (that clearly bear extended surrealistic traits and also
have deep resemblances to American poetry of our generation) are being
identified as "postmodern". These trends do remind us loosely of
post-modern poetry but have other characteristics that are diverse and
discordant. The general feeling that prevailed then, amongst many Bengali
poets, was that they saw Paul Hoover's American post-modern poetry anthology as
their western poetry bible. Hoover's anthology is "too much of a broadband"
- he includes Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Corso and some of the Black Mountain
poets there; calls their poetry post-modern.
Chris :
I agree
with you that Beat could be a more useful category than most of the other ones
you named (I never figured out Fauvism!) because, yes, it is a lifestyle. In
this sense a little more like the later term "punk." I think this is
crucial distinction. To be honest, I find myself much more sympathetic to the
term "Beat" than I did when I was 30 (though not when I was 20, when
the Beats were the first poets I took seriously)-- largely because of their
challenge to the sanitized version of the American lifestyle, a lifestyle I
tried to live, but find myself alienated from (‘these are not my people’ as Joe
South put it)--and thus wanting to champion the alternative ethos of the Beats.
My writing style may be much more like Peter Gizzi's (or even, at times, Mark
Wallace's)--but I think one crucial difference between Peter and I is that my
lifestyle is much more beat-like than his---for better and worse, but I don’t
want to be dogmatic about it, for many things could change.
Thanks
also for your account of Bengali poetry politics. Yes, it is a fascinating
topic, although sometimes I hate myself for wasting too much emotional and
mental energy thinking about the more unsavory (corrupt) sides of it all. I
like the Hoover anthology much more than the new Norton ‘contemporary’ one or
the Douglass Messerli anthology that came out around the same time....in part
because of its "broadband" or eclectic qualities (which, in my
opinion, is what made that Donald Allen anthology of 1959 so important, and why
it hasn't been repeated as the poetry scene has become more balkanized), but I
really never got the term "post-modern" in ANY of its usages. It's even
more vague and abstract than the other terms you mention (surrealism and lang.
po, for instance; at least those terms refer to an actual group of poets who,
at least at times, called themselves that). NOBODY agrees on post-modern. One
person's "post modern" writer is another's "modern." Some
say American"post-modern" is more like European "modernism"
and I think there's some truth in that. But then the difference between
"modern" and "modernist" (not to mention ‘modernity’) is
also vague, and to top it all off, there's many who call Shakespeare
"modern" or "early-modern."
I want
to stay away from those terms; except in quotes (or as a joke)...
It's
interesting to see how other people define those terms. In your case, it seems
that the distinction (in Bengali) between "post-modern" and
"post-language" is used very differently than it seems to be used in
America. In America it seems that those who use the term
"post-language" poetry consider it a sub-division of "post-modern"
whereas in Bengali, "post-modern" seems to mean
"PRE-LANGUAGE" in many ways (correct me if I'm wrong?)
Chris:
I
guess, by this definition, I would probably characterize myself as more
"post-modern" than "post-language" so maybe the post-modern
group who you are now unpopular with would like my work more. Anyway, in
reading YOUR poetry I definitely saw your work as more what in Bengali would
probably be called "post-modern" (in a good way) than mere
"post-language." There's a wide range and a definite emotional
investment which seems to be lacking in much merely "post-language"
poetry. I just don't know why they all need to draw lines, with ins and outs,
and hope I am not doing it myself in trying to understand their terms.
Aryanil:
I see, you
dedicated Stealer’s Wheel to your late mother. I'd love to hear more about your
mother, your childhood...family...friends...elementary..school...teenage..red
baloons…babyteeth..first love ... travel .. trips... bachelor parties...early
poetic excursions...sex ...music ...lonely NYC evening walks...and a whole lot
more.
Chris:
My
mother would have turned 61 last month. She didn't even make it to 50. I think
she had a huge influence on me. I was definitely what one might call a
"mama's boy". She was a victim of being poor and female raised in the
1950s and medical ineptitude/incompetence. Ah, America! A long story-- someday
I must say more. I don't mind you asking at all.
Aryanil:
Does
"Stealer's wheel" have a special meaning ?
Chris:
"Stealer's
Wheel" was the name of a rock band that basically had one big hit around
1973 (and a minor follow up) fronted by Gerry "Baker Street" Rafferty
(I didn't know they were the same guy until later). The song was called
"Stuck In The Middle With You." I wrote the poem ‘Stealer's Wheel’ in
1992 (actually read an early version of it for the first time at a reading I
did with Peter the day before my mom died). Originally, the poem was going to
be called "Stuck in the Middle" but then I thought that that was not
a good title so I changed it to the name of the band that did the song. And
then when I was putting together the book and looking for titles it seemed like
the best title for the book (as one blurbist comments on the
"circular" quality of many of the poems therein), which is kind of
funny because a) it's the oldest poem in the book and b) I almost wasn't even
going to put that poem in the book-- for various reasons. But the title, to me,
aside from the "story behind it" as I've told you here, is interesting
to me because it's VERY suggestive I think (and I like the SOUND of it). What
IS a Stealer's Wheel? Hmmmm... Maybe it WAS something historically? A torture
wheel they put petty thieves on? Maybe, it's like the WHEEL OF KARMA? So,
there's a few possibles. I'm sure there's more...
Aryanil:
You led
me to the poetry of Jennifer Moxley. I have had a rather bewildering time
acquainting myself with Moxley's poetry (just a handful by far) and some of her
net-essays. In the post-language wake, Moxley must have left the language poets
aghast. I find her old-fashioned; sentimentality and romanticism aside, her
poetry is too verbose, her language overtly metaphorical.........
maybe....actually I'm sure I'm missing something here...need you to help. Is it
a possibility that the defiance her reinvented lyric offers to L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E
poetry, sort of catapulted it.
Chris:
Others
have had the same reaction to Moxley that you have had, people who I really
respect. I don't quite understand how people like my work and not hers(or, as
is probably the case more often, like her work and not like mine). But I
don't think I can change anybody's mind about it.I guess what I like is the
fact that there's SUBSTANCE in her work(unlike quite a few contemporaries, even
some with whom she is associated). Moxley has a lot to say, and doesn't shy
away from wrestling with big themes of self-questioning, etc. while others
might want to provide easy answers.
I know
her work is more "formal" and "high" (or, one could say,
"repressed" or "careful") than much of mine, but I get a
sense of someone who really loves language, thought and feeling-- and feel much
more a kinship with her than others who might more superficially resemble me
(Wallace? I don't know....)
Aryanil:
I am
missing out on the quintessential here. True, however, that I haven't found
Moxley's work to mirror yours or vice versa but then I have my own hurdles too.
I am no expert at American poetry...just beginning to learn.. sketchily read
some Blake, Plath, Frost, Whitman, Cummings in my teens...I have no formal
training in literature...like most Bengali poets of my generation...graduated
in Mechanical Engineering, did a PhD later on something called Finite Element
Analysis....engineering math stuff...not a fluent exponent of the English
language either...not to mention American English...still write
"labor" with a British "u"....
So you
can see I hope...
I look
for good poetry from female poets worldwide....all the time...but rarely have I
been charmed. Ingeborg Bachman I liked, at one time almost fell in love with
the burning, often squeamish sensitivity of Plath's "Ariel"...sniffed
at Diane Di Prima and Adrienne Rich- did like some...a bit of Lorde ...barely
one or two female poets from Bengali poetry, Debarati Mitra is one, my most
favorite.
Chris:
Have
you translated any Debarati Mitra? I’d like to see some of her work. And these
days, in America, it seems that in my generation (perhaps for the first time) women
seem to have an easier time of publishing and getting more recognized than men
do. Of course, I think this is just a fact, and saying it isn’t necessarily
incompatible with feminism. The fact that more women get published as poets in
the larger scheme of things doesn’t mmean much when poetry itself is so
peripheral (it’s like ‘here’s more
monopoly money; doesn’t that make you feel good’). But a man isn't supposed to
say this (and I don't know if any woman would dare to), and I may come
off reactionary I talk about some of this in an interview I did with David
Hess in a on-line magazine called "readme". I think some people say
women write differently than men, and that a lot of the things that are
associated with "avant-garde" (in quotes) female writing, things like
fragment, etc., are more suited to a female mode of perception, and that may be
true. But I don't care to make such arguments. I don't think this is
necessarily true of Moxley, or some of my other favorite female writers in
America---yes, Plath, but also Notley, Harryman (who is incredibly relentlessly
intellectual---some would say she's not even a poet), Riding. Do you like Emily
Dickinson? I do....
I guess
given my life situations as a single heterosexual male who is fascinated and
frustrated by the female gender, and who believes that one of the most
difficult, and challenging, tasks (and hopefully playful too) in life is for
the sexes to come to some kind of understanding--since, whether because of
nature or culture, we are extremely different, and misunderstandings abound,
and I think this is root of many evils, etc. I find myself interested in
feminism and in many ways very sympathetic to it, but I also find that not a
lot of women are really interested in dialoging with men on it these days...at
least in the poetry scene.
--- to be continued ---